The see-saw in the journey to Polygamy.
If you have been following since I don’t know March or something you will know that this journey has been back and forth between me and my wife in standard soap opera fashion. I have learned quite a bit about my wife and her feelings and justifications for things. I know that there are instances where she doesn’t mind at all the interactions between me and a sisterwife and then there are instances where she is completely uncomfortable with the whole concept. If any of you all are embarking on a similar journey I’m sure that you will find that things sometimes go back and forth. Like with her ultimatums about the idea, sometimes she’s emphatic about them and other times she is very lax regarding them. I think that this has to do with her emotional state at the time. I think when she is feeling very confident with our relationship she is very lax and when she has feelings of insecurities she is very stringent. Frankly I don’t think her “guidelines” are carved in stone, but when I do she accuses me as trying to persuade her. I don’t feel that this is the case I’m just trying to be realistic about the situation.
At the end of the day however one must look at the stark realities when the honeymoon is over. There will still be bills and lots of them. There will still be other issues that one cannot control in reference to the lifestyle, external stressors that really just get in the way. Things that will undoubtedly make you ask yourself what in the hell was I thinking? I don’t worry as much about all of the arguing that is leading up to the situation, I worry more about the situation after it is all said and done. The paying bills, the buying diapers, gas, car notes, house notes, hair, nails, vacations, in-laws. So much real life things to think about that really bring your focus out of significance of the little things that concerns all wives involved. So where my wife may be concerned if I’m more drawn to long flowing hair, or weight, or earning capacity, in reality the only thing I’m concerned about is paying the bills and keeping everyone happy. Significant things that women usually don’t tune in on, however these are the things that most men focus on in monogamous relationships and the same things that piss women off when the man’s attention is diverted from anything other than her. I can’t imagine that it would become any easier with more people involved. I would like to think that I am thinking realistically about the whole situation. Irregardless of whether my ideal wife is added or my wife’s there are some real issues that are going to have to be addressed. Most men that I have heard about that get involved in plural marriage are either too rich to be concerned about the needs or wants of the wives or too controlling to care. Even that isn’t true though because there are men like Martin who from all appearances doesn’t fit in either category.
My wife commented on my last post and at the end I was like screw it we just won’t get a sisterwife because that’s the safest and most peaceful option. The situation is all intangible so there aren’t any real issues to argue over so why insert added fights based upon an imaginary situation? Why? I guess supposedly you are supposed to have ground rules so I quickly took a decision t-chart and tried to align the points where both our ideals align without conflict. So here they are:
- Has to be Sunni Muslim of sound Deen.
- Attitude towards Deen has to be sound.
- Has to wear Hijab.
- Has to be committed to prayer.
- Has to be submissive or non-argumentative there is a better way of saying this I just don’t know what it is. We are not looking for a mindless automatron. I guess the best way to say it is someone that is not going to come in and disrupt an already delicate situation by her inherent personality. Do you know what I mean? Because all women will undoubtedly have their moments, and that’s cool just not everyday.
- Committed to our family as a whole (which means integrating her family into ours if she has children).
- Willing to share one house.
- Extra bonus willing to share the same bed.
- Has to enjoy sex.
My wife can comment on any points that I forgot that we both agree on. I feel some of the other issues are superficial at best, other issues are valid, but can be dealt with on both sides. Like the issue of children I can understand that bringing additional children into the relationship can swing the pendulum either way. If the sisters have developed a close bond then it could work to strengthen the relationship. If they remain adversarial it adds permanence to a hostile situation. I feel that the character of the individual far outweighs issues with weight, race or occupation. In a relationship I feel that character is most important. If a person’s character is intact then the rest of them falls into place, or can be reasonably dealt with.
Now when it comes to me dealing with my wife’s phobias about me and the women that I would invite into our family I’m kind of at a loss for a couple of reasons. For one when it comes to Muslimas I’m really out of the loop because our religion doesn’t allow socialization between women and men. Furthermore I’m kind of a social recluse so the prospect of me meeting a woman is really slim to none. So that is an aspect that I really don’t understand, I can respect her position and fear but I don’t understand the plausibility of it. As far as the non-Muslims that I may happen to associate with I feel that is a dead issue because under no circumstances would I seriously consider a non-Muslim for a module in my family for reasons that I have stated earlier. There are many beautiful women out there that aren’t Muslim, but with me when the Muslima steps on the scene it is a no-contest. My wife has cautioned me about my interactions with the baby’s mother of the child we watch (there isn’t a word in the English language for this strangely I was kind of thinking baby-satter or something because that’s kind of stupid) and I’m like no I don’t think so.
In the mean time though I can fantasize about what I would really want and enjoy the family that I have now and most earnestly follow the advice of the Prophet (SAAW) “When you are out and see a beautiful woman, then come home and make love to your wife.” If everyone followed this advice then there would probably be a lot less infidelity in the world. Probably.
One thing I am curious about. You consider yourself a striving Muslim and say that the sistewife's deen must be strong but you and your wife both write about threesomes. Do you know that sharing a bed with too women is haram? Does your wife know that having sexual relations with a woman is haram for her? Do you consider this matter so lightly or is it possible that you don't know this or have not considered it before?
ReplyDeleteTo be honest with you the thought had crossed my mind. About my wife having relations with my wife she knows that is out of the question. She does not have a desire to do so, but she sees your comment here on the issue so I'm sure that she will possibly comment on the issue. I don't consider anything in my Deen lightly. The matter has been discussed because there are Hadith concerning the issue. What I'm not going to do here is a Beliefnet styled Fatwa justifying or condemning myself either way.
ReplyDeleteI will state that fantasy leaves off concerning what is Halal and Haram. While having a threesome may be a part of fantasy if it is truly Haram then of course it will be forbidden.
Now what I do know what is stated is that it is Haram for two women or two men to be under the same covers naked. When it comes to a husband being involved the matter greys out. Where the hadith addressing the issue are concerned I believe that peace and tranquility of the household and the sanctity of marriage are concerned. So if the first wife has her house and the husband brings home a second and forces the issue upon her it would cause her additional emotional grief to share the same house and same bed and to know when her husband and his new wife were sharing intimate moments. So naturally I can see the prohibition here, but I'm not about to start speculating in matters that I know not. If you bring your evidence that it is emphatically haram and not makruh or mubah then I will look into it at that time.
I really appreciate you posting please come back.
I gave the question to Sunnipath.com so I will see what they say about the issue and then I guess I will go from there. It is kind of hit and miss though because lately they've been shooting back with this ask a local scholar routine, and outside of serious centers of learning finding a scholar is about as probable as finding a million dollars (US) laying on the side of the street.
ReplyDeleteI also searched and please don't misunderstand that I am trying to issue any fatwas myself. I was just asking a sincere question and have alwaays read and heard this is haram. Note this:
ReplyDeleteQuestion
Asalaamu Alaikum,
If I had two or more wives, would it be permissable to have an orgy with them?
Thanks,
Yasir
Answer
Wa'Alaikum Asalaam Wa'Rahmatullah Wa'Barakatuh
This type of relationship if not permissable. Your wife isn't even ALLOWED to tell your other wife about your sex life.
Book 008, Number 3369:
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah he pleased with him) reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upoin him) said: The most wicked among the people in the eye of Allah on the Day of judgment is the men who goes to his wife and she comes to him, and then he divulges her secret.
Abu Sirma al-Khudri (Allah he pleased with him ) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The most important of the trusts in the sight of Allah on the Day of judgment is that a man goes to his wife and she goes to him (and the breach of this trust is) that he should divulge her secret Ibn Numair narrates this hadith with a slight change of wording.
Wa'Alaikum Asalaam Wa'Rahmatullah Wa'Barakatuh
Islamonline states:
ReplyDeleteIntimacy between Spouses: Very Private!
Question
A person is married to two wives. He wants to have sex with both of them together in the same bed as a threesome. Is it haram to do so if the wives are willing to do it? Thanks!
Date
20/Jul/2003
Answer
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
Dear brother in Islam, thanks a lot for your question, which reflects your eagerness to seek Islamic guidance in all spheres of your life. May Allah enlighten our hearts with the light of Islam!
As regards the question you posed, it is to be noted that having sex with one’s wife in front of any other person, even if a second wife, is not permissible. Having sex with one’s two wives together is prohibited even if they are willing to do it, as this involves allowing them to see the private parts of each other, which is not allowed in Islam. This also goes against the Islamic teachings that require that bedroom secrets should be confined to the husband and wife only. Moreover, this violates the basic norms of modesty.
Elaborating on this, Sheikh Faysal Mawlawi, Deputy Chairman of the European Council for Fatwa and Research, states:
“It is not permissible to have sex with one’s two wives together for two reasons:
First, it is not permissible for a woman to look at the `awrah of another. The `awrah of a woman with respect to other women is what is between the navel and the knee. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, ‘… and a woman should not see the private parts (`awrah) of another woman…’ (Reported by Muslim and At-Tirmidhi)
Second, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) prohibited the man and the woman to talk to others about details that happen in their bedrooms. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: ‘Do not do this. Do you know the similitude of those who do that? They are like a male and female devil who meet each other in the road and satisfy their desire with the people gazing at them.’
This indicates that with greater reason a man must not have intercourse with one of his wives in the presence of another, as the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) did not make exception for the second wife in this Hadith. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was very keen not to have intercourse (with any of his wives) while anybody could see or hear them.
In his book Al-Mughni, Ibn Qudamah stated that if the two wives agreed that the husband have sex with one of them while the other can see them, this is not allowed, as this is mere degradation and absurdity that violate the rules of modesty and go against sound taste.”
Well then that settles it.
ReplyDeleteLike I said earlier I unfortunately am an Intellectual based Muslim rather than a strictly spiritual Muslim which lends to problems in Deen as one's own perceptions without sound studied knowledge lead to one conjuring up things in the Deen that do not exist. Being strictly spiritual has it's problems as well, but not when dissecting halal and haram are concerned mostly in extravagances in worship.
In the argument to the left there are several holes that could be exploited intellectually. For one the hadith that is concerned is in relation to relating relations outside of the bedroom if both wives are in the bedroom then the prohibition hasn't been broken. However this hadith expresses some violations that I have made in this blog which I will cease immediately.
The other awrah hadith holds more weight in this context and thus I submit to it without walking the shaky line of turning off the lights first.
Just curious are you male or female?
Of course you all know how life goes now we will meet a really hot Muslimah that my wife completely trusts and clicks with and they will both be dying to have me at once, and I'll be tested as to whether I'll say no, or... not. Of course I'll say no.
ReplyDeleteWell then that settles it no second wifey for you :)
ReplyDeleteSalaam Alaikum,
ReplyDeleteTo clarify: The first and second anonymous posts were from me. The 3rd one was not.
I am a woman and first ran into you at Beliefnet when you were under attack (unfairly I thought at the time). You may remember that I sent you and your wife a message regarding your desire to practice polygyny which is your right as a Muslim. However, at the time I had no frame of reference for your personal situation and only do now because I came across your blog accidentally. I read some sister's blogs and your wife had commented on one. I found her nickname interesting and thus, checked out her blog. When I saw how you and your wife view polygyny with an eye towards shared sexual experiences (threesomes or voyeurism) I felt I had to speak up to clarify the Islamic position on this issue. I didn't know if you and your wife were unaware or simply rejecting it, but I did want to stress that what you both may envision as a fringe benefit of polygyny is actually considered a great sin. It is now your choice to make, but if your religion is important to you, consider it carefully.
It seems by her writing that your wife and you think of polygyny as a way to spice things up a bit. I do suspect however that if your 1st wife wife were "shut out" of the physical intimacy shared by you and your 2nd wife, she would have a much greater problem with accepting the insecurities it can cause. It is clear that she has jealousy issues already and from her blog I see a very different side than what you both presented on Beliefnet. That's your own personal business but I think it MUST be clarified that what you both envision as an Islamic polygynous arrangement is not Islamic at all.
I am originally from Virginia although I have been living in the Middle East for over 7 years now. I understand that it can be difficult to build a sense of Muslim community around you in your current living situation, but I urge you to try to connect more with the Muslim community and try to learn more about our Blessed religion. Insha'Allah you will be able to resist the haram more if you know about it.
Salaam Alaikum,
DocPeace